Jessica Osborn [00:00:00]:
You're listening to she's the Business Podcast. Now, if you feel you've been hardwired to seek out approval, permission, praise and compliments from others, then it's very likely that you would identify with the common traits of the people pleaser. And in today's episode, we are identifying the hidden trap of the people pleaser identity, how to recognize your inner people pleaser and how to rewire those subconscious traits and instincts so that you can find easier and better success as the leader, as the owner of your own small business. So stay tuned. This is a juicy one you're absolutely not going to want to miss. My guest today. Michelle Castle has a 20 year career in the dynamic area of branding and design. Her vast design and creative direction expertise includes website design and development, ui, UX design, AI tools, branding, print, all of the things as you can imagine over 20 years.
Jessica Osborn [00:01:07]:
She was a, what's known as a creative suite master back in the day when, you know, Adobe was a program that you had on a disk and you had to upload into your computer. So she has been at the forefront of shaping identities across diverse industries for a very long time. And she brings to us today so much depth of insight and understanding of the classic creative mind and how she's been able to work with and leverage the strengths of the creative and also to understand the people pleaser side of it and how to really rewire her thinking around it so that she could have a successful business, which clearly is very successful because she's been doing it for over 20 years now. So without further ado, I would love to introduce to you my gorgeous guest, the lovely Michelle. Let's play the interview for you now, Sam. All right, so I am here with the lovely Michelle Castle. Michelle, welcome to She's a Business Podcast.
Michel Kasl [00:02:54]:
Thank you so much. Thanks for having me so early in your morning.
Jessica Osborn [00:02:58]:
I know my voice still hasn't quite warmed up even though I've been up now for a few hours. But, you know, we've been at swimming squads and the kids have been getting ready for school and now here we are, which is where I want to be having this lovely conversation because Michelle is just a beautiful soul. We connected, I think, via threads and then we chatted and we're like, we have to do a podcast episode. There's so many synchronicities, I think, in our approach into business and how we think about it. But Michelle, would you like to tell everybody a little bit about who you are, what you do before we dive in and talk about the hidden Traps of people, pleasers. Yeah.
Michel Kasl [00:03:42]:
Yes. Yes. So, yeah. Thank you for such a kind intro and for just inviting me and having me on. My name is Michelle Castle. I've had my digital agency now for 20 years, which is insane to say sometimes it's been an interesting journey. Not the same agency it was when I started 20 years ago, but we're based out of Fort Myers, Florida, which is on the west coast of Florida. So definitely we used to be in the northeast and got away from the snow.
Michel Kasl [00:04:14]:
That was not for us. But our main focus is in helping business experts show their expertise online through their branding, their website and their messaging. That's what I am passionate about.
Jessica Osborn [00:04:30]:
Yes. Amazing. And you know, you've, we've talked and you've done a lot of website work. I think you're a real creative and in your bio you say you're a creative suite master because you've been in this game for so long. Obviously back in the day it was you do Adobe or you don't do anything. Like there, there was no other options. Right, right, right.
Michel Kasl [00:04:54]:
100%. Yeah. We were talking earlier about when it was actually you had to buy the product like a physical disk and put it in your computer. And now everything's cloud based and subscription. But even the tools, you know, I used 20 years ago have completely changed, like you said.
Jessica Osborn [00:05:12]:
Yeah, they absolutely have. But it's, you know, it's great. There's been such an evolution and I think as creatives, you know, there is so much more that's really at your fingertips now. There used to be a lot more that was sort of locked down and I think harder to access. But yeah, you would know a lot about that in terms of, you know, when you're a creative professional, one of the things is adaptability. Right. And I think you named it like chameleon skills. So talk to us about, you know, the benefit of that.
Jessica Osborn [00:05:46]:
And then also when does that become something that's potentially not so positive for you, like your insight into your business and your growth?
Michel Kasl [00:05:57]:
Yeah, I mean, being in the creative space, being in marketing, you're, you know, you're trying to impress, you're trying to please, you're trying to get attention and you're molding yourself and your designs and even your words and techniques around what you think other people will like. And so it's an amazing trait to have to be able to adapt. I think of the chameleon changing colors, you know, on the different backgrounds. We actually have chameleons down here. They're super Cool. Yeah, but they, you know, they blend into the trees or they blend into the. The trunk of the tree. And I was just thinking about that.
Michel Kasl [00:06:41]:
And it's great to be able to do that, but not at the expense of yourself. And a lot of times I'm so focused on what other people think, what other people want. Is this going to work for my client? Are we doing the right thing for the client? Just the other day I was talking to my husband and he's like, well, you know what, what do you want for dinner? And I couldn't answer. And that's weird because you kind of lose sight of you, kind of defer. What do you want? What would make you happy? And I find myself doing that in my everyday life in addition to.
Jessica Osborn [00:07:24]:
Yeah, and I think it makes perfect sense because your business and what you have been doing and training in for so long is creating designs for clients. Right. So for the client to be happy, you need to provide what it is that they're looking for. But every client is going to be different. So you're doing one thing over here with one, then another thing with another, and you build this ability to really quickly adapt from. Right, well, this client's brand is very masculine and heavy and bold and brash. So we're going to do those sort of designs. And then this one over here is a lot more softer and feminine.
Jessica Osborn [00:08:00]:
And we want liveliness and. And you would adapt, you know, your design skills, you're going to produce very different outputs. And so in your work, that is, that skill of being able to adapt is absolutely critical. And. And I often, I have seen and known of designers before where I'm like, I don't give them that type of work because they literally, it is not their style and they can't adapt. So there are some that have a very specific type of style. They do. And I'd be like, I will give them that work, but not this other kind of brand, because they just can't deal with it.
Jessica Osborn [00:08:31]:
Whereas you sound like you are the type of designer who can literally be the chameleon, like, change colors and be bold and do those sort of designs and then change completely and do something at the other end of the spectrum. But the challenge, like when you're thinking about it from the business owner point of view, then now you're marketing your own business, what do you do? Because you're like, I don't have a client telling me what it should be or how it should look. And you're so used to taking and being able to Adapt to their vision, their wants, their needs, and how it is, how they're wanting it to be. That I think that could be where your biggest challenge comes from, because it's so easy. And I think. Sorry, I know I'm going on a complete rant here, and I want to hear your opinion. I'm like, I'm tuning into it because I know as a female entrepreneur, it's hard for all of us to quiet that external voice. And, you know, it's so easy to be looking out.
Jessica Osborn [00:09:30]:
You only have to literally open your laptop, open your phone. You start scrolling, and you're noticing what other people are doing. Women, we're so visual, and we're very intuitive, and we're very aware of others. And so you're seeing all that stuff, and you start to kind of lose a sense of yourself. The more you're doing it, the more you're comparing. Whereas I think for you, that must be actually on the extreme level, because you literally do that as your work, as you adapt and change. So talk to us a bit about that. Like, can you place a boundary in your head where you go, right now I'm in CEO mode of my own business, or now I'm the marketing director.
Jessica Osborn [00:10:04]:
For me, you've almost.
Michel Kasl [00:10:07]:
It's very hard. It's very hard. No, it is. And I feel like also finding the time and the mental energy to put forth that creative. The same creative energy that we put forth for our clients, to invest that in our own business is extremely challenging. I mean, you. You hit the nail on the head thinking about marketing. Premier Designs, our company, super intimidating.
Michel Kasl [00:10:34]:
But give me anyone else's business, and I can come up with 5, 10, 15 different ideas. I don't know exactly why that is, but for business owners, I think the hardest thing to do is to actually look at your own business with a neutral perspective and not comparing it to, you know, everything else that's out there. I call that shiny object syndrome, where you're just chasing the, you know, latest trend, latest color palette, latest whatever, and.
Jessica Osborn [00:11:08]:
You will always be chasing it because there'll always be a new one. Like, I remember when I started out in this business, and obviously I had a long background in marketing, but I'd be seeing people posting in groups going, you know, oh, what do you think about this color palette? And it was like, always blush and gold and. And, you know, the browns were in there, and I was like, you're just following a trend. Like, if you want to actually create brand, that is your brand of your business. And not be changing it every year to whatever's the latest, which is a lot of work. And you're just going to spend all the time in the background doing all this back end work. Like you actually need to discover your own brand essence and then how that then comes out visually, like, what is it that makes you you? What are the colors that really speak to your values and who you want to be that are not going to change in two months time when there's some new trend that's out there. But like, I knew that because of the experience of obviously understanding branding and why you don't want to be changing it all the time.
Jessica Osborn [00:12:09]:
But so many people new in business, I think it's really hard for that initial piece of like, well, what should we look like? Who do we want to be? And that's why it's so important to have that structure behind the decisions. Like what are the decisions you need to make? It can be easy to do once you have the structure. And it's, you know, you go through the process. Right, right.
Michel Kasl [00:12:32]:
And it is a process. I mean it definitely, it is a process that requires, I mean, even for established companies, we do brand clarity intensives where we sit down and talk about all the things that no one's really, you know, talked about ever since they started the business. Because you get busy. I mean, I mean you can't do everything. And clients and customers, they're always going to be the priority. So all this like internal stuff. Oh, we'll do that later, we'll do that later. And then you realize, oh yeah, probably should prioritize how we're showing up.
Jessica Osborn [00:13:11]:
Absolutely.
Michel Kasl [00:13:12]:
What our website looks like and the.
Jessica Osborn [00:13:13]:
More different cooks that you have, like, the more, you know, the less guidelines, the longer it goes on for and the more different people involved, the brand can really easily morph into something that you're like, wow, over here our website looks like this, but then the ads and the social media looks totally different. And it can be so easy to get into that place where the brand comes fragmented and doesn't have that cohesion. But you know, don't be hard on yourself if that's been something that's happened, because it is very normal and it's kind of an evolutionary part of the business. But it's like Michelle said at that moment, what you want to go, oh, okay. We've now noticed that we've, that we've become out of, we've broken out of the mold, we're not consistent, we're not showing up consistently. That's a great time to come back in and tighten it up.
Michel Kasl [00:14:04]:
Yeah. And sometimes you need an outside perspective to really hone in on what's not working, because it's also not solely about what, you know. As the business owner, we try to remind our clients of that. You know, like, well, I don't like green, or, you know, what. Whatever it is. But, like, well, it's not only about you. You really have to think about the people you're trying to serve and attract and, you know, what's going to resonate with them. It can't just be about your favorite colors and your favorite images and.
Michel Kasl [00:14:40]:
And, yeah, yeah, it has to be more than that. And so we've found that sometimes playing, like, referee, especially when there's a team involved, it helps because we play the neutral party. We are just leading and guiding and discussing, and eventually everyone comes back to the middle, and it's a really cool thing to see, but I don't think they could get there on their own.
Jessica Osborn [00:15:08]:
No, that's right. And. And it is partly, you know, it's like, oh, I don't like green. But it's like. But green is not there in isolation. It is part of a much bigger piece that you need to be able to stand back and, like, green signifies different things. Right. So of course you're looking at color palettes.
Jessica Osborn [00:15:25]:
It's like, well, what is it that you want your business to be about? And. And people would feel or think about you. Then green actually may be the most effective way of communicating that. Or having green included in your brand palette might be very strategic for that reason. So it's, you know, it is being able to help coach people through which, you know, you do so well. And it's. I always find it so much fun, but interesting how people respond and react. I've seen some people go, I really want this.
Jessica Osborn [00:15:55]:
You know, they've done some design on their website, and they were really attached to it, and you look at it, you're just like, oh, my goodness. Like, that is just an affront on the eyes.
Michel Kasl [00:16:04]:
Like.
Jessica Osborn [00:16:05]:
And how do we go past this?
Michel Kasl [00:16:09]:
Part of what we do is we actually sit them down and with a list of adjectives, like professional, clever, creative, you know, all these adjectives. Pick three. What three do you want people to feel when they experience your brand, whether that's visually or in words. And then we compare that to their logo, their existing website, and usually there is a massive, massive disconnect between where they say they want to be and where they are. And so kind of Pairing those aspirational words with what they currently have. It's kind of an aha moment for a lot of businesses. Like, oh yeah, I see it now again.
Jessica Osborn [00:16:59]:
Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, like going back to what you said before, like, why is it so hard to, you know, do this for your own business and your own brand and creatives, I think especially struggle with this and you know, when you look at, we're talking about the adaptability, skill, being able to adapt and really take on the client's vision and brief and put yourself in their shoes and then you can do it again for someone else and someone else. It's also the other part of what makes you a really great service provider who gets great results for clients is this ability to like be really invested in what they think and pleasing them. You know, I think we, we've got as our title for this episode the hidden traits of people pleasers. I'm like the, the best people pleasers often also get the highest client satisfaction because, you know, you're so invested in that satisfaction result. And that actually is one of the things that could be on the flip side, making it really hard to make some decisions around your own business and branding because you like in the back of your mind, even subconsciously you're probably thinking about what will people like, you know. So how do you find as obviously living and breathing in that? What are some of the things that you can do to help yourself shift out of that mode? Like turn off the people pleaser for a moment and think, well, I want to make a decision around my business and branding website. You know, clearly you want to resonate with the audience.
Jessica Osborn [00:18:33]:
But there's a, there's a fine line, isn't there, between trying to make it pleasing to everyone versus being strategic and actually being impactful and powerful because you've made a good decision.
Michel Kasl [00:18:47]:
Yeah, it is a very fine line to walk. And I mean I've been a people pleaser by nature. I think a lot of creatives are. A lot of people in creative careers have also been people pleasers to some degree because it's kind of a performance. You're putting yourself out there, you're putting your work out there for judgment. And the tough thing is like when, when your self, when you link your self worth to the praise of others, then you're dependent on your next compliment. And that's really hard to wrestle with in your brain. In my brain, I'll speak in the first person because I know it so well.
Michel Kasl [00:19:34]:
But you really do have to Think about your motivation. Why am I making these decisions? And the thing that helps me the most is, is not doing the comparison stuff on our own business. Now, we do a lot of research and we do research for our own business as well. But when it comes to. It's a very personal thing when you're working on your own business and so not comparing yourself, oh, well, you know, they're a much bigger firm or they, oh, they, you know, they do such slick animations in webflow and we don't do that. You start getting into those, like, comparison marks and shutting that part off for me is the most helpful and really just honing in on, okay, this is what we do best. We do these things best, and it's a result of expertise, hard work and effort. And our case studies and our results speak for themselves.
Michel Kasl [00:20:37]:
Lean on that and say, what would it take to get more of, like, this particular client or this particular result? And so that's the headspace that I try to exist in, especially when I'm working on our.
Jessica Osborn [00:20:52]:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You've, like, turned off this need or desire to please people because when you are doing your own business, marketing, branding, you know how you're going to put yourself out there. It is literally not to. For someone else to say, I like it or don't like it, like, who cares, right? But it's like this inbuilt, like, almost reaction or natural tendency to think that you want people to be pleased. But what you just said, it's like you're stepping out of that place of the need for approval into a place of personal power where you like, center in on our credibility, the work that you've done, the testimonials, the results, and really, like, who are we? Who is it that we are? It doesn't matter what that other company is doing and what they're great at. That's this their business, it's not yours. Like, it's none of my business what they're doing.
Michel Kasl [00:21:45]:
It's helpful to reread the testimonials in the case studies too. Like, hearing it from your client's perspective. It really, for me, anyway, it really centers me around the why behind what we do.
Jessica Osborn [00:22:01]:
So that's such a good idea. Anytime you're having those doubts. I think it's something that, like, I know and do as in, I have a testimonial, you know, file, and they're all in there. And it's interesting when you forget to go in there or maybe you've been sitting in your doubt and Feeling like, oh, really? Like, you know, am I really as good or can I do this? Or who am I to talk about that? Or all of that stuff. The old imposter at those moments that should be like the little trigger to be like, go and just read your testimonials. Take one minute and just read some because it's so interesting. Like, when you do read them, the different feeling that you get, like this sense of, like, empowerment, you know, no, I do belong and belonging and, you know, wow, I really can. I now believe in myself and I trust myself.
Jessica Osborn [00:22:54]:
You can trust your decisions. You can get out of that place of indecision. That.
Michel Kasl [00:23:00]:
Right. And I feel like for me, it's like I made a difference for this business. Like, what we did as a, you know, our skills, our. Our expertise and our knowledge has really made a credible difference for this business. And that is what keeps me motivated. And so, yeah, just. I would encourage all of your listeners reread your testimonials.
Jessica Osborn [00:23:24]:
Yeah. Make sure you've got a testimonial folder file. It's somewhere that you can, like, just literally click, open it and read them at any point in time.
Michel Kasl [00:23:34]:
Especially when you're having one of those bummers of the day and you're like, everything's going wrong. No, seriously, sometimes we need that, especially as, yeah. Where we tend to be a bit more emotional and so, you know, reading things that are actually, like, concrete and real examples of how you've made a difference.
Jessica Osborn [00:23:53]:
Exactly. And, you know, like, just on that as well. A lot of the time people think, well, I've got to, you know, market myself and talk about myself. It's like, you actually don't really. Like, I think the most powerful marketing is talking about your clients and talking and sharing this stuff. Because that in itself is the proof. That is the proof of what it is that you can do. That is what people are interested in because they can put themselves in those shoes.
Jessica Osborn [00:24:21]:
Like, I always think it's the most shallow form of marketing for people just to talk about their own results and their own self and what they've done. It's like, yeah, interesting. But, you know, how have you helped other people? Like, could you help me? And that's what the people are thinking. So it's good to know your testimonials and know your client stories. And obviously being able to, you know, reading them and being so familiar with them means that it just feels far more natural to be able to talk about them as well. Like, oh, yes, well, I've got a client that, you know, I remember one time we were working on this project and this happened and blah, blah, blah, blah. Like you can use them in so many different ways. They don't always just have to be like a static testimonial on a page as well.
Jessica Osborn [00:25:05]:
But yeah, well, yeah.
Michel Kasl [00:25:07]:
And you know, the hallmark of great marketing is problem solving. So what, what problems do you solve? Because people are looking for help. Whether, whether you're buying something on Amazon or you're, you know, shopping for a new outfit, you're looking to solve a problem, whatever that is. And especially in professional services, you have to be really in tune to the specific problems that you solve for your clients. So not in a general sense anymore either. You have to really be in tune to what, what are they looking for and what keeps them up at night.
Jessica Osborn [00:25:48]:
Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Now you were talking a moment before about client satisfaction and you know, that sort of like that need or it's almost, I think we were, we're partly born like that, creative people. But then, so funny story, I remember when one of my first jobs ever, I worked at McDonald's when I was a teenager and I literally just legal to work. I got a job there and I remember it just being so much about the customer, like, can you serve the customer in under one minute, Smile this and that. And there were all of these rules that we had to follow to make a good experience. And then I think that goes into hospitality, it goes into, you know, and a lot of us tend to work those sort of jobs when you're young, when you're at university like that, because they're, you know, they work right, they work with your schedule and anyway, it's easy. But I'm like, that almost even like trains you into this culture of over delivering and yeah, talk about that because I think that you know, the people pleaser as well, like the client satisfaction, where does it become? I'm exceeding expectations, I'm focused on client satisfaction and where does it cross over into over delivering to the point where it's, it's beyond like how do you.
Jessica Osborn [00:27:16]:
Because I'm sure as a creative, I know I'm, I am not a designer myself, but having been on the hiring side and worked with a lot of designers, you could literally have clients that I, I'm sure who could come back and have asked you to change it for like 10, 20 times and like, oh, now I don't like that or now we want to add that. And it just keeps on going well.
Michel Kasl [00:27:37]:
I don't know if you see this Sign back here. It says good enough. And that's actually, that's a reminder to myself that sometimes good enough is good enough because I am a perfectionist. And it's kind of like the law of diminishing returns. You could put in, you know, 120% effort. It's not going to get you anywhere. You, you need to be confident enough to send that first draft and get it back for critique and work through those issues. And sometimes for creatives, we kill ourselves to deliver.
Michel Kasl [00:28:17]:
I want this to be perfect the first time around. That's a self imposed. That's self imposed nonsense. I believe that creative should be collaborative. And the best results we've gotten for our clients is when they've been more involved.
Jessica Osborn [00:28:33]:
Right.
Michel Kasl [00:28:34]:
Not when we're force feeding.
Jessica Osborn [00:28:36]:
Yeah. Or you've waited until you've got it so perfect. But then. Yeah, then what happens if it's, if they don't like it? Like, I could imagine there's like the, either the extreme high of like, oh, they love it and how great that feels. But then there's also the fear of like, what if they don't like it?
Michel Kasl [00:28:54]:
Yeah. I mean it. And it's happened. Believe me, I have been on the receiving end of some dissatisfied clients. But that's the first draft. As long as there's an understanding of, hey, you know what? This is our first try. You're not happy. Tell me why.
Michel Kasl [00:29:13]:
That's part of the process. I need to understand why so I can relay that to our team so we can get better the second time around. And it always ends up working out. It doesn't feel good in the moment because of that. People pleasing nature and your work is your worth and all of that. So it's not a great feeling. But as long as you can resolve it and as long as you can come to an understanding with your client of where, like where things got lost in translation, it's fine.
Jessica Osborn [00:29:49]:
Yeah. And I think that's such a really great message to all of us is that if you just put something out there when it is what I like to call mvp, minimum viable product, it's like it is first. It's just like, it's good. It works so it doesn't have everything on it. And you know, so many times I'm like, this has served so well. It's hard because I also was a perfectionist. I've got two perfectionist parents. I grew up in an environment where it was always never good enough and always striving to be more.
Jessica Osborn [00:30:24]:
And it's something I had to literally learn was that if I work that long and to get it to perfect, it's still never perfect anyway. Like, what is perfect? Nothing ever is. You can always improve on everything.
Michel Kasl [00:30:36]:
It's a move, it's a moving target.
Jessica Osborn [00:30:38]:
And it just means that it takes far longer to get anything out there and get it done. And, and often your view on what's perfect is far different to what other people's is. So it was like being able to kind of go with this, like, well, mvp, this is good enough. Like, your sign there, get it out there, get feedback, you know, And I think from a designer point of view, like, if you are that person who's a people pleaser and a perfectionist, which I think, you know, they kind of go hand in hand. That's you're striving for people to be pleased, and that leads into needing to be perfect so that they're pleased. And I think that they. They're almost just so joined in most of us that it can feel like, well, if it's not perfect, they're not going to be pleased. And so you're.
Jessica Osborn [00:31:26]:
You're actually, your subconscious is almost pulling you away from doing it because of this fear of, like, what would happen if they're not pleased. Right. But if you go, hey, you know what? I'm not actually setting any expectation that they will be pleased on the first draft because what we're doing is we're just going, have we captured your thoughts properly? And here is this first thing, the mvp. The point of this is to go, are we on the same page? Are we going in the right direction? And is this good? And it is super rough. And we can take our perfection out of it and our people pleasing out of it because this isn't the finished product. So you can kind of squash those little Personas in your head a little bit and go. And I'm sure that's what you do, right? That's your creative process.
Michel Kasl [00:32:10]:
I have learned to do that, you know. No, I mean, it has to be learned when, when you are a perfectionist because it's uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable putting something out there. You're saying, well, this is really rough, but I want you to see it anyway. But it's so helpful because it really, it simplifies the process. It gets everyone to be sold on the final result because they felt like they're a part of it instead of, well, here we go. This is it.
Jessica Osborn [00:32:42]:
That's right. Yeah. And think about all the time that you would have spent in Making it perfect and then to share it with them the first time and then to go, oh, no, that wasn't what we're thinking at all. You'd just be like, oh, my God. Yeah. And then that turns into. From a creative business point of view, becomes not a profitable way to run your business because of the time that you've spent in there. And, you know, when we take this lesson in learning, like, where else can you apply this in your business? You know, I often say to my clients, like, don't build the whole course or program or whatever it is before you put it out there, because what if it's not quite right? What if your positioning sucks? What if you're.
Jessica Osborn [00:33:20]:
What if you're actually talking about something that isn't what's on their mind? You might see it because you've got that context. You know, you have the vision and you know what the outcome is. But if they're not actually seeing it from their point of view, then it's pointless talking about it. And the only real way to get that feedback is to test it. So I'm often like, you know, do the mvp, like, put something out there. See, are you getting a response? Are you getting interest? You can even sell something and build it as you go. And I have so many people going to me, I could never do that. I'm like, you can you just stay ahead of the game? Like, think about how you could manage it.
Jessica Osborn [00:33:57]:
Think about the time that you need in order to have the things for them at the right time. It's not going to detract from their experience. It's actually going to be more beneficial for you because you're getting live feedback as you go and you can be like, oh, I really need to add this in, or I need to adjust that, or maybe I need a. A little step in. You know, this is going to be a big jump for people and the number of times you can get so surprised at how much time someone else needs to grasp something that you think is quite simple. I'm sure that you get that experience right.
Michel Kasl [00:34:30]:
Yeah. I mean, especially when it comes to tech. We've had some cautionary tales of clients that have gone against our best advice and have done a full build out of a major, major new product and website and features and calculators and custom, this custom everything, only to find out that's not what the market wants.
Jessica Osborn [00:34:53]:
Oh, goodness.
Michel Kasl [00:34:54]:
Yeah. And then you have to roll it all back and start over. So. Especially if you're. If you're trying something new. Yeah. The messy first draft, the crappy first draft. Put it out there, See? See what people think.
Michel Kasl [00:35:09]:
Hey, is this something you'd buy? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.
Jessica Osborn [00:35:13]:
It's like, think of it like your sketch. Like, okay, I've got this masterpiece in mind and it's in my brain. But first of all, I'm just going to sketch it out really rough in pencil and put it out and see. Okay. Is this actually going to turn into the masterpiece? Get that feedback. Yeah.
Michel Kasl [00:35:29]:
I mean, one client, we built this whole giant architecture for their website. We advised them not to go that route. And then they found out that their target audience is senior citizens. They weren't keen on using online tools and calculator. They just wanted a phone number.
Jessica Osborn [00:35:50]:
How did they. Like that is so interesting. Like they found out their target audience is senior citizens. How did they have a product before they knew who their target audience was? That to me, boggles my mind. Aren't you building something because you know who the audience is?
Michel Kasl [00:36:05]:
Well, it was a, like a managed service, like a home services type business. So they weren't, they were sure, they were sure of the geographical reach, but they weren't sure of the demographic reach. Yeah, yeah, it was, it was a research problem as well. But the main point of this whole conversation with them is let's just put up a landing page, you know, that's what we wanted to do and get people to raise their hands and say, yeah, that sounds great, I want that. And you can do that with a single page and a phone number.
Jessica Osborn [00:36:43]:
Yeah.
Michel Kasl [00:36:43]:
Or if you want to get real fancy, you can have a contact form exactly. Like super fancy.
Jessica Osborn [00:36:49]:
You actually to even have a web footprint at all. One page can actually do you so well for however long. Like, why build out a whole website if you literally just need a place to say, hey, this is what I do and here's how to contact me. Like start simple. And I think sometimes, you know, especially if you've worked in businesses and you've worked, you know, I've worked in some huge, huge companies, global organizations, like hundreds of websites and all of this stuff. And so like you, when you're working in things of that scale, then you go to start your own business. I think sometimes you don't stop to think, okay, I don't need to have all of this stuff at that level because I'm not a global organization with hundreds of thousands of staff. I have, you know, me.
Jessica Osborn [00:37:34]:
And it's. I know that sounds so obvious and simple, but it's funny how many people Think I need to have these things because I'm now a business and I've, I've loved how we can make it so simple. Like you say the number of times, I'm like, hey, you, you can start online without a website. You can then put up a one page and just capture people's details or interest. Like all you need is a way for them to contact you, a way to know that you exist. If you bought the domain name, stick it. You know, you might as well stick a page up if you've got the domain. Like, why not just put your main message on it? Like, what is it that you do and who are you? You can add.
Jessica Osborn [00:38:14]:
That's a beautiful thing. I love. I mean, you must love it being a domino creative, the digital. I reckon once we've gone online, it became so much easier for people in creative because now things aren't going to print. It doesn't literally have to be perfect. Like, obviously you want everything to work functionally, but, oh, there's a typo. Cool. I can go on and change that and I can adjust that and now we can add this bit in and you, you have this ability to evolve it constantly and that means that you can go live with your minimum.
Michel Kasl [00:38:48]:
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I think there's still an expectation. Consumers, we've gotten pretty impatient. You know, we're impatient on the consumer end of things too. We expect things to work perfectly every single time. We expect things to be fast and flawless when it comes to our tech. And that's a tough lesson for our clients to learn is the nature of tech. And you and I were talking about updates and, you know, you do an update, it breaks something else or, you know, like that is, that's the nature of the beast.
Michel Kasl [00:39:24]:
And a lot of people are still super uncomfortable. They expect it to be like, like print, where once you send it to the printer, it's done.
Jessica Osborn [00:39:33]:
Yeah. Project done, thick. Move on to the next thing. I'm like, no, no. Your website is like, you've literally burst like a baby and you now need to look after it.
Michel Kasl [00:39:43]:
Yes.
Jessica Osborn [00:39:43]:
It's a living, breathing for it. And if you don't, then it will not be good in a year's time.
Michel Kasl [00:39:49]:
And it will never move out of your house. You will have it forever, be with you forever.
Jessica Osborn [00:39:54]:
It always needs nurturing. Yes. That's so funny.
Michel Kasl [00:39:59]:
It does.
Jessica Osborn [00:40:00]:
But I think, yeah, we have this funny expectation, not only that of like, oh, that is now done, move on. Which now it's literally not like that almost with anything in business, but also like, we expect things to just work. And I think because we have this experience as people and consumers where, you know, you pick up your iPhone and it's got all these apps on it and things just work and it's really funky and you know, every now and then there are little things that are like, oh, that's not as, you know, that's a little bit annoying or that's a bit clunky, but you just kind of expect the technology to work. And I think one of the main things, like when you actually have the technology and it's in your business, it does not just work because it's there. Like there's a lot that goes on in the background that, that makes it seamless. Which is why I think having someone who really understands the tech and the design seen so many times where there's been a, someone has done a design like, you know, in Photoshop or whatever, like a design program and then the developers have got it and then they've like put it together and there hasn't been a lot of synchronicity between the tech and the design. And I think, you know, I'd love you to speak a little bit about, you know, this piece of you actually almost designing with the technology in mind, like, and how you can avoid some of those pitfalls.
Michel Kasl [00:41:29]:
Yeah, I mean, I started my career as a print designer and I am self taught in web development. So I felt that in order to deliver a great web based product, I needed to see under the hood, I needed to know how it worked. I am not a coder by any stretch, but I know enough to be dangerous because I felt that I needed to understand exactly how we're gonna get this design from Figma or Sketch or Photoshop back in the day into actual working code. And so I think that gives, that gives our team a bit of an advantage because I know how to make things work. I know what's feasible, what's sensible as far as clients will ask us for something that it just doesn't make sense or there's a better way to do it. And so to be able to educate the client on, okay, yeah, I understand what you want this to do, but here's a better way to look at it or this might be more cost effective. So there has to be a balance between aesthetics and functionality.
Jessica Osborn [00:42:44]:
Yes. Yeah. Gosh. And you were just reminding me of back in the early 2000s when there was a real trend for Flash websites. Do you remember that? And like it was all about how fancy this thing would look and they were just a nightmare to use. And it was like we'd lost all sense of a website needs to be functional. If people can't navigate to the page or find the pages, it is irrelevant that they're there. Like, but there was this, like, I remember it went on for a few years and so many times, you know, people were just more impressed by like, wow, look at what I can make this fan.
Jessica Osborn [00:43:22]:
Well, menu, do all these fancy things and it'll be like it would move on the page. So it was really hard to even click on it to open it.
Michel Kasl [00:43:29]:
Open, yeah, chase it around.
Jessica Osborn [00:43:31]:
This whole thing of everything was very custom. And there was a big discussion that I used to have with, you know, the people who I worked for that I'd say to them, we can do that, we can go custom. But the more custom we go, the harder and more expensive this is going to be for you. Because of all the reasons, like, it's going to take longer. It might sound good, but then actually building it and getting it to work is going to take far longer. And then all the updates and everything that you do, there's like this huge negative part of it being so customized. And I know that's something you would like. How much is that still an issue today? And for you, being someone who's a, obviously people pleaser, I know a lot of creatives and people listening.
Jessica Osborn [00:44:18]:
We, we, a lot of us are, we're people pleasers. So clients asking like, can we do this? Or I, you know, here's what I want. And your tendency is probably like, how can I deliver that for them? Where do you balance, balance that?
Michel Kasl [00:44:33]:
I think the first question I ask when, when anything is brought to us is, okay, tell me why, tell me why you want this. There's been a massive push in websites to include animations now, like scrolling animations, you know, when you scroll down the page, there's like movement of the background, different layers of the page moving around and, and it's very cool and it's neat. But if your audience is predominantly on their phones as opposed to a desktop, that's not even going to exist. So why are we going to spend time on these animations that are just going to bog down the page and won't even show up on mobile. So it's really breaking it down to what's the best use of your budget, your timeline, and what do your customers expect? Do they care about this? Doubtful. So it's really prioritizing, weighing those things. And sometimes they'll say, Well, I want it. And okay, yeah, fine, it's going to delay the launch, but fine, we can do that.
Michel Kasl [00:45:50]:
But I always like to ask why first. Because a lot of times there isn't a reason and it would just be blowing up their budget and that's not good.
Jessica Osborn [00:45:57]:
Yeah, exactly. And you know, I'd like to just touch on that for a moment. Like the difference between and especially people who have a service based business, you know, the client saying, this is what I want. And you often tendency is, well, okay, this is how we deliver it. So they're customizing everything to then taking that shift into well, this is what they want. But I'm the expert, so how can I then guide them or say, well, this is how we do it and why. So that then you can kind of get to a really good outcome. Because I'm sure that that actually also has a real impact then on the end satisfaction that they have.
Jessica Osborn [00:46:35]:
Because even though they might have said they want something in the first place, like it can turn into a, you know, negative experience for them if you literally just try to deliver it without.
Michel Kasl [00:46:47]:
And sometimes they'll say they want something, but they're really not talking about that exact thing when you get right down to it. Unless you understand. Exactly. Okay, well, do you like this whole website or do you, what do you like about this? And maybe it's just the colors or maybe it's just the fonts, but if you had, if you had taken them at their word and they said copy this website, it wouldn't have been the best result. Does that make sense?
Jessica Osborn [00:47:14]:
Yeah, absolutely. I did that once. I remember with a designer where I've gone, this website's really cool. Use it for inspiration. And they literally coded it like exact. And I went, okay, I didn't say I wanted that website. I said like, take that for inspiration, but use it in my brand. And I clearly was not explicit enough in my instruction.
Michel Kasl [00:47:36]:
Well, or they should have asked, well, what do you like about this?
Jessica Osborn [00:47:40]:
Yeah, yeah.
Michel Kasl [00:47:41]:
And you could have talked through it and maybe not gone down the road of copycat.
Jessica Osborn [00:47:47]:
They were like, I'm gonna do exactly what she says. And I'm coding that to the, like to the letter. But, but you know, that's fine. And you know, I think what you're talking about and you know the really great thing, and I think this also helps you to shift into that personal power place, right. That you're, you're saying is when you actually then stand in your space as an expert and although the client is the client they're paying you, they're paying you because of your expertise. Right. So it's like, how can you help guide them to making some really good decisions? You know, maybe you're coming to together and then that's the final agreement. But you know, that to me, I feel is what you've described.
Jessica Osborn [00:48:28]:
There is such a big difference between taking a brief and delivering it versus taking a brief and going, okay, let's work through this and this is how we do it and why, and let's get them to an outcome that's going to be actually probably better for them in the end, but also better for you because it'll be a good, you know, when their result is good, it's obviously a great reflection on your business.
Michel Kasl [00:48:53]:
Right. And we, even if they give us a brief or a description of what they want, we always, number one, talk to them about it, but also rewrite it in our words, in our understanding of what is to be delivered and what the best process is for delivering it and kind of walking them through that and helping them see, oh yeah, you know, that makes a lot of sense to do it this way. And if we don't use all these custom tools or plugins, we can have something that we can manage on our own. And so like I said earlier in the conversation, there's a lot more ownership of the end results that way.
Jessica Osborn [00:49:34]:
Now I've got a question for you because I know from knowing and being also a perfectionist and a bit of a people pleaser, when people ask you to do something and they're like, oh, we want this and we want that, your tendency is to try to do it all and deliver what they've asked. What, what would you say? Or what have you experienced in, you know, over the 20 years that you've been running your agency and design? Like, how can you see a difference that has changed from the start to now in terms of what you do say yes to? Yeah. And how, how manage that?
Michel Kasl [00:50:14]:
I think when anyone starts their own business, you will take just about anything that comes your way just to get the experience. And that's great, you know, that is, that is the perfect place to be when you're first starting out, because you do, you need to find out what you actually enjoy doing. And you need to find out, especially when it comes to creative, like what, what do you deliver best for your clients? And we used to build websites on all different platforms like Squarespace and Wix and WordPress and go high level and it's too much, it's too Much. So we decided to focus solely on WordPress. And that is our. That's our lane, but that's our lane of expertise. So it allows us to be the experts at what we're delivering for our clients. And so being clear on where you're strongest is super important in the evolution of your business.
Michel Kasl [00:51:16]:
Because you can't just. You're not going to be excellent at everything.
Jessica Osborn [00:51:19]:
No, exactly. So don't. You're going to know that. You guys would know WordPress so well. It would just make it so much faster. And your websites, I'm sure, have far less bugs and issues because of the level of knowledge. But I know that there's a person there going, oh, but what if you get someone that comes along and they have a different website platform or they already have it, or they know that they want a website in a certain platform, you know that that fear rises up. Right.
Jessica Osborn [00:51:47]:
But what if I don't say yes and don't take that client on? Does that mean I'm losing out on a job? What have you found as the actual reality of going. Making that decision, which is a powerful one to make and very, like, scary for a lot of people I know like to say, this is what we do and we don't do these other things. But what have you found as the actual result of doing that? Like, has it been a positive move for you?
Michel Kasl [00:52:12]:
Yes, 100%, because it allows us to focus where we're strongest and rather than spend. When I think about, like, how much time would it take me to get up to speed on building on Squarespace, again, I don't even know. I don't know. Because they have their own, like, language and way of doing things. It's completely different. So are we best equipped to meet that need for our client? No, we're not. But I do know some people. And so we've also established referral partners where they're experts at Squarespace.
Michel Kasl [00:52:49]:
That's cool because they don't do WordPress. So it works out better for everyone. Because then I think about, well, would the client be happy with us building this in a platform? We're not.
Jessica Osborn [00:53:05]:
Absolutely not. And. And that's the thing. Like, it's like, when you do decide you're specializing in an area, a lot of people look at that as like, oh, that means less and less opportunity. It's actually like, no, it actually means more opportunity because do you think that your clients want to hire someone who does a bit of this and a bit of that and a bit of everything, or do you think they're looking for someone who's like, no, these guys really know their stu stuff. And whether we're talking about website building, whether we're talking about, you know, like health advice, personal training, life coaching, business advice, it's like you don't want to hire someone who's really experienced in E commerce to advise you on your coaching service business because they're totally different. Like the strategies that you use for products and mass market is not the same that you would use for a consulting or coaching style business. So it, it's like when you are trying to be something for everyone, you're actually being less.
Jessica Osborn [00:54:04]:
You're not not the obvious choice anymore. You're just like one of the people possibilities. But they're not going to be drawn to you because you're not clearly that person who's like, this is what I do and this is what you need. There's that really strong match.
Michel Kasl [00:54:20]:
Yeah. And it's hard, it's hard to take that leap. It took us a while to take that leap because we did feel like there was that fear of missing out. Especially during COVID when everything was shutting down. You start to question, oh gosh, well, if I don't take this project, what, what's that gonna amount to for the business? You know, And I know a lot of businesses struggled with that as well.
Jessica Osborn [00:54:43]:
Yeah.
Michel Kasl [00:54:44]:
We have to weigh adapting to the environment and the economic situation versus sticking to your guns and saying, no, this is, this is not the best result for our client. And so that's kind of the lens that I try to look at all business decisions through. Is this, am I the best, are we the best team to solve this particular client's problem? And if we're not, I am totally fine sending them to someone.
Jessica Osborn [00:55:17]:
And this is one of the hardest things to do. But I think I have never heard of anyone who's stepped into that space and then has found it to be the worst thing that they did. Like, I have got so many stories of people who like, as soon as I said this is what I do and I started saying no to the stuff that didn't really fit. They were like, I got an influx of people who really were the great fit for me and exactly the type of client I want to work with. And I'm like, yeah, exactly. That's the whole point of why we do this, is why we, why we get you so clear on your specialization that you are suddenly talking to the right people. And you know, it's almost like putting your brand up in Lights. In terms of this is who we are and what we do, people suddenly can know you.
Jessica Osborn [00:55:59]:
They can know you for what you do rather than it just being a business.
Michel Kasl [00:56:04]:
And isn't it, I mean, like, for your clients, isn't it easier for them to explain 100 it's like I say.
Jessica Osborn [00:56:10]:
To them, and the funny thing is no one knows it until they've done it. So you would know because you've done this. But you're like, once you get super clear, everything else is suddenly like so easy. You're like, I know exactly what I'm going to say. I've got content coming out of my ears and my mouth and I' I'm overflowing with it. And I know what to offer. Yeah. Because before they'd be like, I'll just offer my time.
Jessica Osborn [00:56:30]:
Or I've got the, you know, they've kind of got these random, vague offerings. Sometimes even go, I've got a program. I'm like, okay, sort of. It's not really. Because it's not specific. And when it's specific, it's because you know the outcome. And you can't know the outcome you're going to deliver if you've got 10 different people in mind that you're trying to serve and they're all different. Like, if you're trying to make that into one outcome, that's why it's not working.
Jessica Osborn [00:56:55]:
Like, you know, it's hard, it's not easy to do that.
Michel Kasl [00:56:59]:
And, and if it's easy, like, it's easier for them to explain it. Think about the people who are hearing that message. Then it clicks, right?
Jessica Osborn [00:57:07]:
Yeah.
Michel Kasl [00:57:07]:
I mean, yeah. If it's easy for you to say, it's easy for people to understand. And then you become known as the go to team or person or coach or whoever it is for that particular thing. So. But it is scary. I'm not saying it's not because it is, but it's scary when you finally do make that decision. It does pay well.
Jessica Osborn [00:57:31]:
I find sometimes people need to try doing it the way they do it. Which is why am I always. If you've been in business for more than a year and you know, you, you've got a client here or there and then you're just getting frustrated. You're like, why is this not getting easier? Why are people not knowing me? I'm like the hidden gem. You know, that's when it's like, okay, now it's time to do this. And yes, you're going to have to feel like you're cutting some things off. You never. You're actually just opening up the door of opportunity.
Jessica Osborn [00:58:01]:
But it's a, it is a, like a transformation. Like, you literally have to shed. You've got to shed some of these old things, parts of you to allow the new bit to evolve. I like to think of it like the caterpillar and the butterfly. It's like you're the caterpillar coming in. You put yourself in this cocoon. We literally break it all apart and then put it all back together as the new. The new part that can fly now you can fly.
Jessica Osborn [00:58:24]:
And it's like, wow, now I'm so light and easy.
Michel Kasl [00:58:27]:
And there's freedom. There's also freedom in saying no to things that are not the right fit because ultimately it's going to be better for everyone if you say no. And then just having like, after they work with you, you know, having that confidence to say, yeah, this is not what we do. But I think sometimes, you know, you definitely have to put in the work first and have a coach lead you through that process. I know I did.
Jessica Osborn [00:58:58]:
Yeah, definitely. Yes. It's very hard to do on your own and in your own echo chamber or, you know, people now ask ChatGPT and I'm like, you know, Chat GPT is literally just going to tell you what you want to hear. So if you're asking it for this kind of advice, it is going to reflect back to you what you're already putting in, which is just going to be more of the same of where you already are. You can absolutely combine those two things or three or four things into one. That's such a great idea and it's going to tell you exactly what you want to hear. So good luck. Good luck.
Jessica Osborn [00:59:31]:
If you're using that, I always say, so good. Michelle, we could honestly talk for ages. I know we like touched on so many topics here and that's what I can't believe. It's almost been an hour and I think, you know, for the sake of you, you're at the end of your day. I appreciate the amount of time that you spent with us sharing and we have scratched the surface, but maybe we'll come back and do another one another time and talk about another topic. So much the world of business, when you've been there for so long, how can people reach out and find out more about you, connect with you if they are thinking, I need a WordPress whiz or someone to actually help me reimagine my. And how this is actually going to be through my website and how it looks.
Michel Kasl [01:00:19]:
Yeah, the best way to find out more about me is actually through my newsletter. It's my Monday mantra dot com. It'll be in the show notes, I'm sure, but it's my creative outlet for sharing the business wisdom that I've learned along this journey. Marketing, design, tech, just navigating the changes that are constantly going on. It's a weekly newsletter and then we combine that with my love of board games. So it's kind of neat that way. Okay, so, yeah, definitely check out the newsletter and I'm actually going to provide a free website audit for your listeners as well. So you can include that in the show notes.
Jessica Osborn [01:01:05]:
Thank you. Tell us a bit more about that.
Michel Kasl [01:01:07]:
Yeah, yeah. So it's just a downloadable that they can work on on their own time to figure out where their website might be costing them those premium opportunities. Because people are super quick to judge, super quick to evaluate, and if you're not sending the right message or the right signals, they're just going to bounce. And so it's a downloadable PDF that they can actually take a look at their own website and see if it passes the premium client.
Jessica Osborn [01:01:38]:
Oh, great. That is so useful because I think everyone probably looks at their own website and goes, oh, you know, it's okay. But, you know, you see all the things that you probably think aren't great, but maybe you're not actually seeing the things that could make the biggest impact, that, well, these things don't really matter. That's just personal preference and that's you. The stuff that does matter are these. These other items. Right, right.
Michel Kasl [01:02:02]:
Yeah, yeah. And there's a. A scorecard in there so you can see how you rank on different credibility checks that we do in a professional audit. Wow.
Jessica Osborn [01:02:13]:
So, yeah, that sounds amazing. What a great resource. Definitely download that, have a look at your own website. What you learn from it, even if you take away one thing from that, that's going to be of absolute value. Thank you so much, Michelle. It's very generous of you.
Michel Kasl [01:02:31]:
Thank you. Thank you for having me. Thank you to your listeners for giving us this time and really appreciate it. Look forward to. Absolutely.
Jessica Osborn [01:02:38]:
Thanks, Michelle.
Michel Kasl [01:02:40]:
Okay, take care.
