Jessica Osborn [00:00:03]:
One of the essential skills that is required for anybody who is running a business, but they do not teach this to you in business school, is the skill of bravery. Now, my special guest today is an expert in the science of bravery and she breaks down what bravery really is and, and what it's not and guarantee that there's some definite learnings in there for all of us. And also why bravery is so, so important if you actually do want to be successful in business, you know, create a big impact and also feel really fulfilled in your life. So please stay tuned. This is such an important conversation for anyone because trust me, we all come up against the barriers to bravery in our business all the time. So stay tuned. It's coming right up you in just a moment, I'm going to introduce you to my special guest today who is Jill Schulman. She is absolutely incredible, an expert in the science of bravery, having studied positive psychology.
Jessica Osborn [00:01:15]:
She has a master's in applied positive psychology, which is the science of happiness and well being. But she's combined in her own research, real world experience, starting from her initial career as a U.S. marine. She is a Marine Corps veteran, but has also spent 14 years in the corporate world and has been an entrepreneur as well with her own business. So she is an absolute wealth of knowledge. She shares so much insight and understanding into this art of, and the science of bravery and also the effects that bravery and adopting bravery, like actually, as she calls it, building your bravery muscle, the incredible impact that can have on your business, on your results, on your success, fulfillment, and on your life in general. So without further ado, let me press play on this interview and introduce you to Jill.
Jill Schulman [00:02:14]:
Hi.
Jessica Osborn [00:02:15]:
So I'm here with the lovely Jill Schumann. Jill, thank you so much for coming and joining me here on She's a business podcast Today, today, really, really keen to get into this topic around bravery because what entrepreneur doesn't need to be brave? I don't know. I think you are brave if you are an entrepreneur. Right? Yeah.
Jill Schulman [00:02:33]:
And I'm so excited to be here and talking about this subject. And I think you're right, it's even more important for those of us who are entrepreneurs, myself included. But yeah, your audience is probably pretty brave already if they started their own business. But hopefully there's still a couple more things they can learn to, to elevate their success in their business.
Jessica Osborn [00:02:52]:
Yeah, absolutely. I think that we all go on that roller coaster of, you know, obviously we have an ability to be brave, but then there are so many things that can stop us in Our tracks, turn it off. And, you know, the fear can rise up. As everybody listening would know, we all get into the fear and the doubts and all of those things. So I'm really keen to hear your wisdom on it being, you know, an expert in the science of bravery. It's so exciting. But before we dive into this, please give us a quick overview of who you are, who do you serve, a little bit about you. How did you even become an expert in the science of bravery?
Jill Schulman [00:03:28]:
I know, it's kind of like you're an expert in what and is that even a thing, right? Yeah. So I think I started learning about bravery in my first career. And my first career is I live in the us, probably can tell from my accent. And I started my first career was in the United States Marine Corps. And in the US out of all of our branches of service, the Marine Corps is kind of known as the few, the proud, the toughest. So. So I started learning about bravery as a Marine, went then to corporate America, large pharmaceutical companies. So I was there for 14 years in pharmaceutical, biotech, device companies.
Jill Schulman [00:04:04]:
And then I decided to become an entrepreneur and I started my own company. And oh my gosh, I've learned so much in that journey. And what really brings us to the end of or the answer to your question is like the science of bravery still, like, where is this coming from? I decided to be brave and go back to school about three years ago and to study positive psychology. So positive psychology is a study of happiness and well being. Did you know that's such a thing that there is a study, there's a scientific study of elevating our happiness and well being. And I stumbled upon this research because my company does leadership development to drive results in organizations. And I stumbled upon it because there was this author, he's the whole reason that I either blame or give credit for going back to school and going through that whole hard journey. His name is Sean Acre.
Jill Schulman [00:04:58]:
He actually just blurbed or is endorsing my book, but he wrote a book called the Happiness Advantage. And he talks about how your emotional state is a driver of business success. And I'm like, wow, I just kind of knew it intuitively, but I'm like, there's a scientific study of this. And so I went down these rabbit holes and went back and I studied positive psychology at UPenn, which is, you know, probably the best school in the world for it, because Marty Seligman is the father of positive psychology. And he started the program and he still teaches there. So, yeah, so that Kind of brings me to the end of my journey. And what I did my research on at the end of my master's program was really, it just ended up landing there. And the reason I ended up studying that is because I want people to live their best life.
Jill Schulman [00:05:43]:
I want them to elevate not just their success, but their happiness and well being. And what I ended up stumbling upon and did my research on, and this is what I'm on a mission to share is, is the secret to happiness and success is not eliminating challenges and adversity. And it's not having an easy life. It's not. It's actually the opposite, which is trying to do really hard things that align with your motivations, your values, and then being able to endure the ups and downs in achieving it. Right. That increases self confidence and self efficacy. So really choosing the hard path, which is what entrepreneurs do.
Jill Schulman [00:06:24]:
Right. Many times. So for all of you out there that are going like, oh my gosh, this is so hard and I'm going through so many struggles, like you're doing all the right things. You're really. Sometimes it's hard in the moment, but these are the things that lead to the highest levels of pride and satisfaction. So I'm trying to kind of like right the ship because do you feel this way that. Yeah, some people feel that to be happy you want no challenges and you want.
Jessica Osborn [00:06:52]:
I think there is that wiring that we have, especially women, right. To avoid conflict and avoid situations where we feel uncomfortable or where we feel, you know, like there's no certainty. And I think that there is a whole wiring that we have had maybe in our culture and our upbringing to avoid risk. Right. Identify the risk. Well, I think we're actually humans. We are wired to avoid risk and identify risk. Right.
Jessica Osborn [00:07:18]:
So it is interesting because while you're saying that, I was like, absolutely. It is. When we take on a challenge, we do something that we didn't even know whether we could do it and we achieve it. That is where you get the most satisfaction and fulfillment. And you know, that really is leading you to having that happiness and fulfilling life. Yeah. I'm like, boom, you just said it straight away. It's curious, isn't it? Because it's almost like the exact opposite of what we want.
Jill Schulman [00:07:47]:
Yes, yes. And, and I love that you brought, you know, up our evolutionary roots because we are more motivated to avoid fear. Right. So for anyone who might have shied away for things that feel risky or we're kind of scared of or uncomfortable, like you're just, you're just human. Right. But what I teach, you know, my audiences is also in the book, is to really differentiate between fear, fear that's there to protect you, and the fear from things that you really want. You know, things that align with your values or your goals that are. You're scared of them because you're a little uncertain, or you're afraid you might fail, but accomplishing them.
Jill Schulman [00:08:27]:
So it's differentiating, like, different types of fear and knowing which ones to listen to so that you can be safe, you know, so if. If. If a weird stranger pulls up beside you and says, get in. And you have this weird like, okay, yeah, don't get into the car. Don't be like, I'm gonna be brave. So some fear is good.
Jessica Osborn [00:08:47]:
Yeah.
Jill Schulman [00:08:48]:
Fear keep us small and prevent us from trying to achieve what we want. That is. That is the fear that. That. That we want to try to overcome so we can live our best life.
Jessica Osborn [00:09:01]:
Yeah. That fear of the unknown, the fear of, like, but can I really do it? Like, I've got this idea, I've got this vision, but can do it, and I'm afraid of what might happen if I don't. I think that's probably one of the biggest ones, right? Even if you've started a business? Because I think a lot of people start a business, and that is a huge step. You know, I just have to say congratulations to anybody who has actually started a business. Because guess what? There are millions of people who have that idea, and they're sitting back thinking, one day I'll know it's the right time, or I'll get a sign, or they're waiting for permission, or they're waiting to feel differently about it, and they never do it right. And they just end up going, well, I've just got to give that dream away. And it's like, well, you actually just had to take action. Like, nobody has got it all figured out.
Jessica Osborn [00:09:49]:
No one knows what they're doing. Everybody who started has just started. So when you've done that, it's amazing. Like, congratulations. And then it's like, then you come up against all these new, new fears of, like, oh, but, well, if I do that, what if it doesn't work? And what will people, you know, yeah, there's. There's a lot in it. Do you think, like, are people born with a. An ability to be brave? Is this something you're born with? Is it something you develop? What's your take on that?
Jill Schulman [00:10:20]:
Well, I'm gonna try to always give you not just Jill's opinion, but I'm definitely a nerd, so I'll give you the scientific answer because we've, this has actually been studied. So bravery, think of it as a, it's a character strength. Right? Some people have it more naturally, but what we know, which is true of all character strengths is you can build any of those. So anyone can learn to be brave. So you don't either have it or you don't. And this has actually been proven when it comes to like when think of it as a muscle. So bravery is like a muscle. Like if you go into the gym and you want like really big strong biceps, you don't go in and try to lift 50 pound or I don't know, whatever kilos that is like really heavy, like weights to try to curl it.
Jill Schulman [00:11:00]:
And if you can't lift it, then you're like, well, it just didn't work. Right. I mean, that's just not what happens. You, you got to start lifting like, like smaller weights and then it's going to, you're going to lift until your muscles fail and it hurts and it's uncomfortable, but then you grow stronger and then you can do more weights. And so bravery is the same way. Right. So, you know, anyone can build their bravery muscle and, and become braver. And then even the people that you think of as like the bravest people ever, like, they may be brave to maybe take some bold action.
Jill Schulman [00:11:29]:
But in my. I have a free assessment that's on my website, I'll tell you about later. But you know, I look at bravery in three different dimensions. Bravery mindset. So your beliefs on what you can do then bravery action, like the action that you take, which is taking steps in the presence of fear, but then also brave relationships. So people who think they're brave when I, when we dig into, are they comfortable admitting mistakes or asking for help? Those people realize like, oh, I'm not really brave in that way. So everyone has opportunities to build their bravery muscle.
Jessica Osborn [00:12:00]:
Yeah. Incredible. What, like, if you were to define what bravery is, what, how would you define it? Like, what is it?
Jill Schulman [00:12:08]:
Well, what bravery is not, it's not being fearless. And that's a mistake people have. They're like, oh, wait, in order to be brave, I need to wait until the fear goes away, until I feel ready. So if someone doesn't have any fear, then they're not being brave. Bravery is defined as taking steps toward something in the presence of fear. So having the courage to take steps and take action in the presence of fear. So what I try to Help people realize is if you're a little bit nervous, then you're absolutely normal and now it's an opportunity because you have an opportunity to be brave. Am I going to take a step forward? Even though I don't feel 100% ready, I'm a little bit uncertain, I feel a little bit of that fear or I'm I.
Jill Schulman [00:12:57]:
Or it's going to be uncomfortable. Am I stepping forward or am I choosing to let that fear, that discomfort hold me back? Which another word for that would be am I going to cower or am I going to be courageous? Which of these things am I going to do? So that's what bravery is, taking the steps forward in the presence of fear, choosing brave or courage versus cowardice. And it has a tremendous impact on our success and our well being if we consistently choose bravery or choosing to cower. I mean, have you ever heard like financial advisors talk about like the key to having like wealth at the end of your life is like consistently like save over time, over time, over time, right?
Jessica Osborn [00:13:43]:
Yeah.
Jill Schulman [00:13:44]:
So think of it the same way as bravery. Like what would be the cumulative effect, which is the name of my book, bravery Effect. Because I'm really interested in like I don't want people to be brave just to have bravado. I like, I want you to know about the research on what is the effect of bravery. So let's say you're an entrepreneur, right? And you, you need to come up with like some, some videos, some social media media videos to really promote your. But you're like a little nervous and go like, oh, that sounds like, oh, that I'm gonna look silly and I don't know if that looks good and you decide like you're not gonna do the little video. And then the next week, you know, you need to have a tough conversation with maybe one of your contract employees or, or maybe a difficult customer. But you just don't want to be uncomfortable and have that conversation.
Jill Schulman [00:14:22]:
So you just decide to not have it work hour and then next week you know, there's a really big customer and you pitch them and you haven't heard back and you don't want to annoy and you want to follow up. And I don't want, I don't want to be uncomfortable. I don't want to like bother them again. I'm not going to, you know, all these little decisions. So like I think of for entrepreneurs or for most people in the world, I think of like the little mini bravery moments and imagine the cumulative effect if in each of Those situations we choose to not step forward, that we're going to stay safe.
Jessica Osborn [00:14:55]:
Right.
Jill Schulman [00:14:55]:
And mental right. Of that effect, depending on what we choose.
Jessica Osborn [00:15:01]:
Yeah, exactly. You're making me think of, you know, I think a really common fear. So a lot of people say to me, oh, you know, you've got a podcast and you do videos, and I see you everywhere. And I'm like, yeah, but when I first started this business, I came from a background where I was not the face. Even though I did marketing, I sat behind a computer screen. I had graphic designers, and I had all these people in my team and in my department, we produce things, but I wasn't standing up on stages or doing anything at all. And it was like I. I kind of knew what I had to do.
Jessica Osborn [00:15:37]:
But it wasn't like you just go suddenly from nothing to everything. It was like, okay, I need to get comfortable putting a photo of me on my social media page in a public, you know, an actual photo. I now need to get comfortable taking a selfie and posting it on a business page. You know, I'm basically building a brand here. And it's not a profess. I had to like, each little thing was like. It was uncomfortable, but I'm like, okay, I forced myself to do it, force myself to do first Facebook Live. And hilariously, I don't know whether it was the first or second, but literally one of the very first ones I did, my video was sideways, because I don't know how I did it.
Jessica Osborn [00:16:18]:
It must have been on my phone, and I thought, I'll put it landscape, because that's how, you know, this is years ago.
Jill Schulman [00:16:24]:
Now everyone's watching it like this.
Jessica Osborn [00:16:26]:
Yeah, I didn't know. I didn't know. So I talked through the whole thing and. And then it posted on my page and one of my friends saw it and they went, do you know that your video is sideways? And I was like, had no idea. So. And I knew that there were people on the live with me at the time. No one said a word hilariously. And I just had to laugh and go, how funny? And so all those moments, I think then build your.
Jessica Osborn [00:16:51]:
Like you're saying it's like you build a tolerance to it, you know, like when you're in the gym, you start off with the small weights, and then you slowly progress. It was like this tolerance. And I remember having then, you know, broke a seal of doing lives and then gradually got more comfortable. And, you know, I was thinking about doing a podcast. I thought about it for two years before I even Launched it.
Jill Schulman [00:17:10]:
Yeah, right.
Jessica Osborn [00:17:11]:
Two years. I thought about it. I was saving bits of audio and stuff because I was like, oh, I could use these for the podcast. And it got to the point where I'm like, if I don't use this stuff I've been saving, it's going to be obsolete. Obsolete. So it's now or never. And I just had to go, bang. I'm just doing it.
Jessica Osborn [00:17:25]:
I have no idea what I'm doing and. But I'm doing it right. And if you went back, sorry, I know I've gone off on down attendant, but no.
Jill Schulman [00:17:34]:
Yeah, you learn by doing. And any. Anytime we stretch ourselves or we try to grow or we're trying anything new, it will be awkward and you will have early failures. And that's the way it is for everyone. And I think that's one of the things that we have to understand is I think sometimes we think that, all right, I've got this great idea. I'm going to start this business and I'm going to launch it, and then everything's going to go perfectly and it's going to be linear and I'm just going to grow it over time. There's going to be no ups and downs and I'm going to be super successful. And we just think that success is linear.
Jill Schulman [00:18:06]:
Here's the truth. Like anything, there's going to be. I mean, success is up and down and around in twists and turns, and we have to actually anticipate it. And, you know, some of the. The evidence from Gabriella Utengen from the University of Hamburg, like, she, you know, she's someone who also contributes to the field of positive psychology. And sometimes people, you know, think that since I studied positive psychology, everything is just going to be, like, positive. And Pollyanna. And what she actually teaches is when you develop a plan, right, to, let's say, start a business or anything, any project or anything that you're doing.
Jill Schulman [00:18:45]:
She said one of the keys to be able to successfully achieve your goal is to anticipate the obstacles and know that there's going to be ups and downs, right? And when you anticipate it, first of all, you're actually thinking ahead and you're anticipating what might go wrong. So when it happens, you know, you have a contingency plan, but it also is preparing you psychologically where when something goes wrong, you're like, I knew this would happen. I knew something would happen. And now you're not thinking like, the sky is falling and I'm not a success and I shouldn't Be an entrepreneur. But you're like, I knew there's ups and downs, right?
Jessica Osborn [00:19:18]:
Yeah.
Jill Schulman [00:19:18]:
So just knowing. Yeah.
Jessica Osborn [00:19:21]:
And I think that's the real difference is like anticipating these things that are going to go wrong, but they're not the reason not to do it.
Jill Schulman [00:19:28]:
Right.
Jessica Osborn [00:19:28]:
They're just like, I know that there's going to be the minefields out there and I'm going to strike one of them. I don't know what one, not sure which one's going to pop up, but there will be some, some, and that's okay. And I will be okay. And you know, that's to be expected. So, you know, you did mention earlier, and I kind of wanted to ask that question now around the emotional state then that you are in. And is this, you know, please talk about that because I think that that is the difference, you know, sorry. And I may, may be trying to talk about it without knowing it. So I'm going to hand over to you.
Jessica Osborn [00:20:03]:
But, you know, how does your emotional state play into this whole shift in how you're approaching things and you know, taking on that mental bravery?
Jill Schulman [00:20:14]:
Yeah, well, our emotional state, or I want to even state something a little bit more broad, our mindset, and I include our emotional state in that is absolutely critical to becoming braver or being able to accomplish hard things. So, you know, I think a lot of times, you know, I do a lot of work with corporate America and then of course, small businesses, even like myself. But like, you know, sometimes we ignore our mindset and our emotional state and we just get to doing the thing. But we don't really ever spend time working on our, our mindset, our. The cognitive side of success. And it's a mess because most people think like, oh, I, I don't have any. It's. It's something mental.
Jill Schulman [00:20:56]:
Oh, there's nothing wrong with me. That's for people who are like, anxious or have mental problems. Like, I'm just fine. Right. The top performers, the most successful business people, the most elite athletes say the, the one thing that makes the biggest difference is when they work on the cognitive side of performance. It's the science of peak performance. So I just want to state that first. So we should all be working on our mindset, our emotional state, if you want to be the most successful.
Jill Schulman [00:21:24]:
So winners, brave warriors, do that. Right. Not weak people. So working on the emotional state, working on our mindset is what the badasses of the world do, not just the weak people. I want to first of all, like kind of correct that, but. And then when it comes to the mindset, you know, our beliefs impact our behaviors. Right. I mean, sometimes we just focus on the behavior, but we got to go upstream and go, what's causing the behavior.
Jill Schulman [00:21:50]:
So this is where my psychology background. We have to go upstream and look at what are the beliefs that we have that's creating the behaviors. Because beliefs impact behaviors, behaviors impact results. So, like, I want to go all the way up to the source. And so, and so there's a lot of things I talk about, you know, as when I, when I speak, you know, to audience around the globe, or even in my book, which is under mindset, I talk about growth, mindset. I talk about generating optimism versus pessimism. I talk about our mental chatter, the voice inside of your head. Yeah.
Jill Schulman [00:22:31]:
And then also, just like that, generating the emotional state, because that's really what you specifically asked about. So what we know based on research is, first of all, we are not our emotions. So let's say something happens and it's a setback. I'm not saying absolutely ignore your emotions, because if you ignore them, they're just going to pop back up. So you want to recognize your. This is a setback. This is hard. So instead of just saying, I am sad just like I'm experiencing disappointment, because so just by naming it, we're just saying I'm experiencing something I'm not.
Jill Schulman [00:23:04]:
It's just, you name the emotion that creates some cognitive dissonance, distance from the event, and then ask yourself so you recognize it. I'm feeling this way. But then here's the most powerful part. And when I, when I discovered this, it was a game changer for me. So I hope it is for you as well. You have inability to generate the emotional state that best serves you and your employees, if you have any in your small business or the customers that you serve. Let's say I'm having a bad day and I wrote, I woke up on the wrong side of the bed. I had a flat tire.
Jill Schulman [00:23:38]:
I don't know, whatever happens to you that just, you know, you're just having a bad day going your business and your customer service, you know, your energy impacts customer satisfaction. So this is where you've got to make a decision, like, do you want to try to alter your emotional state? And you can, we can generate the emotions, right? There's things that we can do to try to shift our emotional. Our emotional state to best serve us, our customers and everyone in our life. And that's all from Barbara Fredrickson. She's wrote a book on positivity. And like, when I. When I learned this, and she actually lectured when I was at Penn, and I'm like, wow. So we can.
Jill Schulman [00:24:18]:
There's things that we can do, like, you know, know about, like, exercise. That's one of them. But also, is there a couple of songs. Can you do a gratitude practice? Like, what is your little. So when you're in that negative emotional state, recognize it and go. And you have your own little checklist of things to do. Like, hey, when I want to get kind of over it and into a positive emotional state, what am I going to do? So for me, it's always doing the three good things that have happened to me. And then I get into what are my goals, what is going to best serve me? And then this is a simple thing.
Jill Schulman [00:24:55]:
But you know how music can change your emotional state? For me, I put on a song, right? And I think about what's going right? And I kind of started dancing in my car and something that simple. Now everyone has a different formula. Like, I. I'm not telling people to do what I do, but figure out how you can shift your emotional state. Right. So amazing that we are not a victim of our emotions.
Jessica Osborn [00:25:20]:
Yeah.
Jill Schulman [00:25:20]:
Recognize them and choose that. I need some joy and positivity. What brings me joy? What, what, what can I do to proactively elevate or, you know, to experience more joy so that I can emanate that to my customers?
Jessica Osborn [00:25:37]:
Do you think that. That the emotional state drives the thoughts, which therefore drives the behaviors? Like, do you think that if you, you know how you said they all connect. We like to connect to the source. I was like, interesting. Like, which is the first one? Like, does the thought make you feel emotion or does the emotion actually drive your thought?
Jill Schulman [00:25:56]:
It's a loop.
Jessica Osborn [00:25:56]:
There's a little loop that happens there, isn't there?
Jill Schulman [00:25:58]:
There's a loop there because also, like, the message that we keep hearing over and over and over again, right. The thought can drive the emotional state, right? So it's. It's the loop. And that's the other thing that we talk about, which is, you know, do you have that inner critic? And what is it saying? And are you going to just keep listening to it or are you going to change that inner dialogue? So that's another thing I, I challenge people to do. And this, this is, this is not easy to take some bravery. But first of all, you have to recognize, like, what is that inner dialogue? And is it helping me or is it hindering me? And if it is not helping You. You have a choice. Do you want to shift that? Because it's not helping you, Right.
Jill Schulman [00:26:40]:
It makes a big impact. So then we teach people the strategies of how you can change. Instead of listening to that voice, I want you to start talking to yourself. Right. And you can try to override that, and that can change your emotional state. So. So they're. They kind of dance back and forth.
Jessica Osborn [00:26:56]:
They do, yeah. The more I think about it, I've done some work on my inner critic, and I love that you recommend that, because I've had full conversations in my head sometimes arguments, like, it's hilarious, right? But it's like the longer that you allow that disempowering voice to take control of you, then you really do stay in that place. And it affects your emotional state. And like you say, then it affects your energy, it affects how you're showing up so many things. And. And I think that, you know, something that's probably relevant for everybody listening just on that, you know, you can always anticipate some of the risks or things that are going to happen and go wrong and know knowingly step forward anyway and think, I can handle it. I know what they are. There are going to be some that you don't know.
Jessica Osborn [00:27:41]:
And I just have to say, with any coming from a background in marketing and then in entrepreneurship, anytime you're running any sort of event, especially a live event, whether that's a webinar or a. A live stream, whatever, something will happen that you had no clue about that has never happened before to you, and it's just a surprise, right? And the thing is that I learned that a really long time ago. Luckily, before I became. Stepped into this space, I was like, anytime you're running an event, something random is about to go wrong. And I ended up at one point having to change a venue and literally put on an event for 300 people within three days. Like, we. We had all of these people come, we had media coming. It was a.
Jessica Osborn [00:28:25]:
An opening of a building, and at the last minute, the boss was like, nope, we're doing it here. And it was like, change gears.
Jill Schulman [00:28:33]:
Whoosh.
Jessica Osborn [00:28:34]:
We've got three days to make this happen. It was insanity. And we pulled it off. No one knew. Everyone was like, that was incredible. Amazing, you know, And I was like, oh, my God. If you knew what had happened behind the scenes, he would have been appalled and amazed at the same time. But, you know, the thing was that what that taught me was be prepared for the unexpected and also just know that you can handle it.
Jessica Osborn [00:28:57]:
Like, it might be crap. The world is not going to end. You're not going to die. Like, probably, like, because we're doing business. We're not out there in the Marines fighting on the. On the front or anything like that. So very unlikely that you're going to die.
Jill Schulman [00:29:10]:
And.
Jessica Osborn [00:29:11]:
And the world's not going to collapse. Like, the sun will come up tomorrow, you know, And I think it's that thing like, you know, you can handle it. You don't actually have to anticipate. Anticipate every single potential danger in order to be brave and take that step forward. You can actually just know, hey, you know, I've identified some things that could happen. I put some things in place that can mitigate it if they are important enough. Sometimes it's okay just to let something happen because it's. It's a lot.
Jill Schulman [00:29:37]:
Yeah, totally. Yeah, absolutely. Just be ready and just. And it's. It's about having the confidence that you're going to be able to find a way around it. So that's really the key is how do you react to that adversity? Because sometimes we can make it worse. Our reaction to the thing that happens is what makes it worse versus positive. And if I go back to, like, there's a research done by Marty Seligman, he wrote actually a book called Learned Optimism.
Jill Schulman [00:30:05]:
And so really it is. Things are going to happen to all of us, bad things, adversity, setbacks, but it's how we react. And so a lot of people have a pessimistic response, which means basically, like, oh, my gosh, the sky is falling. It's going to ruin everything. And there's no way we're going to be able to overcome it. So if you have that catastrophizing response, then imagine, like, this is going to ruin everything, and we're not going to be able to. Your situation.
Jessica Osborn [00:30:33]:
And that's what stops you, right? Like, it stops you from doing it.
Jill Schulman [00:30:35]:
Exactly. And the reason why it's important is that pessimistic belief stops you from taking action. The behavior. You're exactly right. But if we just believe, like, okay, and I'm not asking people to be Pollyanna, I'm asking people to be, all right, so this. They just changed the venue and it's three days away. This is almost impossible. I can't believe this is happening.
Jill Schulman [00:30:53]:
And like, okay, all right. So the reality is this really sucks. It's going to be really hard. But I believe that we can take some action to make the best of the situation overcome it. So it's just. It's having the optimism that you can move forward despite it. Like, that's the key and that. Exactly.
Jill Schulman [00:31:12]:
Yeah, you've got it.
Jessica Osborn [00:31:14]:
Exactly. And I think the. The point of bringing that story up, which I kind of lost track of while I was telling it, was that it is. It's kind of brings it back to that emotional state. So when the thing happens that you didn't even know was going to happen, how, like, you say, how you react and respond to it is how you progress. And it's knowing that, okay, it's okay to have a, like, whoa, okay, there's a moment I might be worried or concerned or upset or be in a state where I'm frustrated because this has happened. And, and that ability to. To go, well, yes, I knew that something was going to happen.
Jessica Osborn [00:31:51]:
And this is the thing, you know, it's like when you get married, oh, no, it's going to rain now. And, like, we need a plan B or whatever it is. It's like something happens. It's. That's. You never expected. And you just. It's that ability to think, okay, I'm going to roll with it.
Jessica Osborn [00:32:06]:
So you bring yourself back to, like, you're saying that. That positive mindset, but that emotional state where you're not freaking out. You're like, okay, I've had an emotion. Yep. Now what? Now you, like, go back into action.
Jill Schulman [00:32:21]:
I love it.
Jessica Osborn [00:32:22]:
Or I'm sure, if you haven't.
Jill Schulman [00:32:23]:
No. And I just. I think one practical tip, too, because, I mean, what you're saying is we're literally kind of arguing with ourselves. Like, we're trying to. We're trying to challenge the belief with actually reality, which is like, no, this isn't the end of the world. It is possible. So, you know, which is exactly correct. That's what we do, is we try to refute the negative thoughts that are usually not the truth.
Jill Schulman [00:32:45]:
Like, if we say, like, I'm a loser, like, I'll never be able to. To do this. Like, like, that is ridiculous. That's not the truth. That is the inner critic talking. And then we need to correct the inner critic with the truth, which is, this is a setback. Or maybe like, this wasn't your. Your best moment if you actually made a mistake.
Jill Schulman [00:33:02]:
But you can learn from this. What can you do now to overcome it? But when we talk about, like, arguing with yourself, some people are like, okay, this. Now you're starting to sound crazy, right? You're, like, arguing with yourself. So here's my tip, which just Makes it really simple. Like, imagine if someone you really love and care about, a best friend, a sister, a child or something, the things that you're hearing in your mind, how you're responding to the adversity, is something they're saying out loud to themselves. And if you heard this loved one say, oh, my gosh, I suck. I'm a loser. I'm never gonna, like, whatever that negative thing is, or I'm never gonna be able to overcome this, what would you say to the loved one? Right, so.
Jill Schulman [00:33:43]:
So that's. The little hint is just talk to yourself as if you're this wise mentor that actually knows more. That's not in the middle of all the emotion here that has that wisdom, and say, like, what advice would that wise mentor that knows the truth, what would they say to you? And that really helps me get out, because sometimes you just get in the spiral. Your amygdala is, like, responding, and, you know, like, it's called that the amygdala hijack and be like, all right, take a couple breaths. Let me bring in this wise sage of a mentor. Like, what would that. If I were that wise sage, giving advice to someone else, saying this, what would I say? And that usually leads you to kind of to say the right things, which is like, yeah, this was really hard. It was a setback.
Jill Schulman [00:34:22]:
You can overcome this, you know, and you will learn from this. So what next? What are you gonna do?
Jessica Osborn [00:34:29]:
Yes, exactly. And, like, once you start taking action again, you're out of that place of free. That's so true.
Jill Schulman [00:34:35]:
So just stop thinking and start taking steps forward. Right? So we got to get out of the. The, you know, just out of our mind, because we just can sometimes waste. Just take a step to start solving it. Right. So brave action.
Jessica Osborn [00:34:49]:
Yeah, exactly. What do you think? Like, so in business, maybe the person running the business, you know, we're listening now, and we're like, yes, I have my own business. You're like, I get this, and. And I can do it. But people in my team, you know, how do I create that culture of other people being able to step in and be in that place as well? Because that's great if you're regulating yourself and you're ready to take action, but everyone else is still in freak out. Like, you know, what do you. What tips and advice do you have for.
Jill Schulman [00:35:26]:
Yeah.
Jessica Osborn [00:35:26]:
People like us?
Jill Schulman [00:35:27]:
Well, I say first thing, and now you're totally in my wheelhouse, because I've been doing, like, leadership development for the last, like, you know, 15, 16 years. Is you know, number one is how you respond to the adversity sets the tone with your team. So even more reason for you to acknowledge the reality of the setback and then say things about your optimism for what you and the team can do to move forward. So kind of like the same little conversation you had to yourself, now you say it out loud to your team. If you are freaking out and in an emotional spiral, your team will do the same thing, but it'll amplify it, right? So they're watching you. It's so important. Like, your response to things is. Is so important because it sets the tone for the rest of the team, you know, when you have those setbacks.
Jill Schulman [00:36:15]:
So, you know, and what we advise, like leaders to do is for. To gain that emotional intelligence. What we're really talking about is emotional intelligence. You know, there's going to be triggers, but just realize that in between the thing that happens and your response, you can create a little bit of space, you know, so you might have to, like, this thing happens and just say, all right, let's just, let's take a break and let's regroup in 30 minutes and we're going to solve this. You might have to give yourself a 30 minutes to, you know, do that little self talking, calm yourself down and take some breaths and come up with it. So give yourself that little bit of space, right? So you want to lead, but then also always go back to. To your why. What motivates you and the team that you lead is what is the why are you trying to create a.
Jill Schulman [00:37:00]:
The. The best product that can solve problems for your customers? Are you trying to help people live a healthier life? Like, what is the mission of your company? And make that your North Star, because that can really motivate your team. Like, this is a setback here, but we're here too. And then whatever your powerful purpose, your mission statement is like, let's keep that front and center to motivate us to overcome this challenge. So, you know, as. As leaders, you know, we want to always make sure. And I'm going to go back to my military roots here. We always say, like, you know, we've got to have what's the purpose, right? And that needs to be inspiring.
Jill Schulman [00:37:37]:
What's our mission? Like, what are we really trying to do? And then you need to really empower your people to be able to accomplish the mission. So, you know, get them to, you know, if I've got a mission to be able to accomplish and my commanding officer is not there, but believe in It. And I know the why. I've got a little bit of agility and execution, right? So if, if I'm supposed to go this way to advance on the enemy and then someone blew the bridge, I'm not going to just sit there and go, well, the boss isn't here. Like the boss told us. Like, we got to get there and we got to show up. So the bridge has been blown. We've got to find another way to get over there.
Jill Schulman [00:38:12]:
So you want to give people a little bit of autonomy, some ownership, some skin to make decisions, and then they'll become brand ambassadors instead of just order takers, you know?
Jessica Osborn [00:38:23]:
Yeah. I was just going to ask, you know, how do you frame your expectation of, you know, I guess whether you, whether you've got a value that it literally is called bravery or, or it's in some other format or wording, whatever that is, but to instill that kind of culture in your business. You know, I'm kind of thinking, well, you want people to be brave, but do you want to give them some parameters around how far are we going with this? Is there too far or. Or not? I think most people probably tend to err on the other side of being too cautious.
Jill Schulman [00:38:57]:
I think sometimes, especially if we're like, owning our business, we want to just. We want to sometimes limit their autonomy because we're scared they may do something wrong. But I.
Jessica Osborn [00:39:08]:
To.
Jill Schulman [00:39:08]:
To make people a little bit more comfortable, as long as you. First of all, you need to focus a lot on the culture of your organization, not just like the business side, because culture, each strategy for lunch. That's a Peter Drucker quote, right? So. So making sure that every member of your team, anyone who represents your brand, they need to know the why of your brand, the value you're trying to bring to your customers. Secondly, then they need to know what they're supposed to do. And the standard should be very high. Like, here's what I'm asking you to do, to try to bring that why to our customer. So they need to have a clear what.
Jill Schulman [00:39:43]:
And then that's got to be very clear. Clear, like what their scope is. But then you also need to be very clear on your how. What are your values of, of not just getting the work done, but how they behave as they're getting that done. So if you put the work into here's why we exist, right? Here's what we're trying to achieve this year, here's what you specifically are going to do to contribute to it, and here's the values that we have, if you put the effort into that, then you can let go more. Because as long as they're, you know, they have that as the framework, then they should be operating within those are kind of the, the parameters. Without just saying, like, I just want you to sit at the counter and do this thing and only refund up to $5. Like, like, well, why don't you just tell them like, we're really trying to create an ideal customer service.
Jill Schulman [00:40:36]:
I trust you. This is where this is the secret is making people feel that I trust you and your judgment. Right. You know, we're trying to be profitable, we're trying to do these things, but we really want customers to be happy. Right. So I want you to make decisions in the moment that's as if you were the CEO of this company as a business owner. And as long as you justify it, like, I'm going to stand behind you. Right.
Jill Schulman [00:41:01]:
So I try to encourage people to like, do more empowering because when people feel like they're a mindless doer, like I'm just here to just do what I'm told and you know, then, yeah.
Jessica Osborn [00:41:13]:
Well, there's a lot a lack of responsibility there. And you know, I'm also just seeing at a high level that's the real difference between a task orientated direction versus outcome oriented. So, you know, that's what you're saying, you know, like tell them what is the outcome? What is it we're trying to achieve? What is their outcome? The expectation of what they're going to help achieve. So, you know, if you had that person, you, you trust them to make the decision because they're going to make it based on, well, this is the outcome that we're going for, you know, and they can make the decision about whether this is going to help achieve that outcome or not in the moment. If they know what the outcome is. But if it's a task, they're going to be like, well, I don't know if I'm allowed to do that or that.
Jill Schulman [00:41:58]:
So they'll probably, and they won't do anything. And then they're going to like the call you. And then you're not picking up the phone because you're dealing with something else and the custom sitting there and they're frustrated and you're like, a lot like, I can't do it, let me call. You know, so you move faster that way. So you're right, like outcomes, values and outcomes. And then trust them. And maybe once in a while they'll make a little Bit of a mistake. Right.
Jill Schulman [00:42:19]:
And then you just gotta go, this is learning. Right. Like, so you. One little. There's one little defect. You decided to refund the entire order instead of just give a 10% discount. Let's talk about a better way. Right.
Jill Schulman [00:42:32]:
You know, so it's all about learning.
Jessica Osborn [00:42:34]:
Yeah. And those are. Things are going to happen. Right. So we know that they're. They're. They're going to happen, and we're not going to react to them.
Jill Schulman [00:42:40]:
I want to say one more thing on just employees here. Like, if this comes from Isaac Perlatinsky's research out of the University of Miami, like, what he teaches is if people feel like they matter, they're going to do an amazing job for you, your company. And the way that you make people feel like they matter is like thinking about mattering. I go to work and I matter. Like, I make a difference. So he says, if you allow people to bring value to your customers, to the company, so allow people to really make a difference, bring value, and then make them feel valued for what they do. So, so much leadership is not just like, here's what you're supposed to do, and like, here's the different resources and the training, but just make people feel valued because then that's how you build that trust and they're going to want to do the most amazing job for you. So there's.
Jill Schulman [00:43:26]:
I could go on and on about this, but I'll wrap it up there. So probably a long answer to a short question, but you got me all excited.
Jessica Osborn [00:43:32]:
I know. I love it. I love it. I love where this is going. So I'm curious. You know, you've talked a lot about your research and everything you've done. You wrote a book on the science of bravery. Am I imagining that in the book there is, like, steps that you're taking us through in order to build that personal bravery? Like, tell us a bit about.
Jessica Osborn [00:43:55]:
Do you have your own method?
Jill Schulman [00:43:57]:
Yeah, there's a method. There's a method. So the book is called the Bravery Effect, and in it it's actually written as a parable. So it's a story that only takes about two hours, if you're a slowly reader like me to read and you learn about the steps in an entertaining, you know, story format. But yes, there's three steps. The first thing you learn about is the brave mindset. So the cognitive side, realizing that discomfort, doing hard things isn't something you should run from, but you should run toward. And when you do, you'll become stronger and happier.
Jill Schulman [00:44:33]:
And more satisfied. So we talk about brave mindset and then we get into the second major, like pillar or dimension of bravery, which is taking brave action. As you mentioned, you said, sometimes you just got to start acting. So I don't want to just talk about people's beliefs and then they're just sitting there like you actually have to do something.
Jessica Osborn [00:44:51]:
Right.
Jill Schulman [00:44:51]:
So then we talk about science behind taking brave action. And then finally we talk about brave relationships. And that's the one thing we haven't really covered here is, you know, anytime you do something that's a little bit scary, you're going to be more brave to take action if you know there's people there that you can ask for help or will support you or encourage you on the way. So these three things are. They're all related and they support each other. I'd say maybe, you know, what's the word I'm looking for? Synergistic. You know, so if I'm going to try to climb a mountain I've never climbed before, like, that's pretty scary. I might not want to take a first step.
Jill Schulman [00:45:26]:
But if I've got people that I seek out and say, oh, you've climbed this mountain before, like, what are some of the challenges you encounter? Do you have any tips for me? Can I call you if you need help? I'm so much more confident to, to start set the goal and start moving toward it because I've got a brave tribe around me. So who are the people that are going to call for forth your best and encourage you to do the hard thing and be there to pick you up when you fall, give you advice along the way? So really, if you believe that you can, if you take the action, you've got brave relationships, those three things together, you will be unstoppable.
Jessica Osborn [00:46:04]:
Love it. Love it. And so where can we get a copy of the book? If that's something that we're thinking must get our teeth into, it sounds really good.
Jill Schulman [00:46:13]:
I would love if people, if you just go to my website, which is jillshulman.com so Jill is S C H U L M N. If you go to my website, then there'll be links to buy the book. I mean, it's anywhere, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, like any of those things. So, yeah, and then I'm all over social media, at least I'm trying to do a good job of marketing. You can let me know if I'm doing a good job as an entrepreneur or marketing. But, you know, I'm an Instagram, Facebook all that. And I do ask, you know, people who are interested in building up their bravery mindset, action or relationships. You know, one best practice is what are you going to do every morning to kind of motivate you to be brave? So what I try to do for all of my followers is give them something that takes 30 seconds to a minute where you'll get that little message to kind of remind you to, like, choose to take that brave step versus cower each day.
Jill Schulman [00:47:03]:
So it's another thing I try to commit to doing for if anyone, you know, wants to. Wants to follow me. But yeah, you can put them in there. All that stuff.
Jessica Osborn [00:47:11]:
Oh, love it. That's so cool. All of those. The links to Jill's website with her book on it where you can go and grab your own copy, will be in the show notes below. So do that. Also go and connect with her on socials. I love that idea of just a little thing that you can share each day to switch on that kind of brave mindset so we can kind of just start the day in that way. How much more we're going to achieve.
Jessica Osborn [00:47:37]:
So much. I know there's so many things that we could have touched on today, Jill. You know, I definitely had more questions in mind. I'm conscious of time and really appreciative of you spending so much time with us today. Is there any last, you know, piece of advice that you wanted to leave with us as we're closing out this conversation?
Jill Schulman [00:47:55]:
You know, just that remember that bravery is like a muscle. And in order to achieve your dreams and to be able to achieve your potential, we need to choose to be brave. And if we allow fear to hold us back, you know, we're. We're gonna, at the end of our life, look back on our life with regret. So I just want to encourage everyone, like, it's not about being ready or being fearless. Remember, it's taking action in the presence of fear. And the best part of learning to be brave is it's not even about accomplishing the objective, the business objective. It's who you become on the journey of accomplishing hard things.
Jill Schulman [00:48:41]:
That's the greatest gift of all because of how you feel about yourself. So I wish people the very best and do hard things. Challenge yourself, get uncomfortable. You're going to be the happiest because of it.
Jessica Osborn [00:48:53]:
Yeah. Oh, amazing. Love it. Take the action even with the. The fear there. That is just so, so great. Thank you so much, Jill. This has been an absolute pleasure and I know that we'll stay in touch and stay connected.
Jessica Osborn [00:49:07]:
Can't wait to read your book as well.
Jill Schulman [00:49:09]:
And.
Jessica Osborn [00:49:10]:
And thank you.
Jill Schulman [00:49:11]:
Yes, I love it. Thank you so much for having me. And the next time I come down to your neck of the woods, I will have to look you up because I love Australia. It is so many amazing people. Such a beautiful place. So let's talk.
Jessica Osborn [00:49:24]:
I would love that. Awesome. Thank you.
